They don't survive long while others who do little move up. SoI'll repeat it again. You try that in subs (who actually generate the revenue, HQ typically dont) - but the question is - do they dare push such a thing in the US? Maybe one boss likes to see a lot of code written, and another settles for less code, but fewer bugs. My old boss was a 65 but his title was "principal director of engineering", new boss is the exact same level and job and his title is "principal engineering manager". Here are some things from my perspective.1. That is a great post Mini. I'm just going to try and emphasize a few points here:* As mentioned by many folks, it is important to own your career and hence plan you promotion, discuss it with your manager, and most importantly follow up on it. I made sure I was the fastest, most efficient, and best bug fixer. Alternately, you can increase the scope of your own job and justify an increased level.So the only real question is, what do you need to do differently at the higher level? It doesnt matter if the system is fair or not. Don't do this point blank and for no apparent reason, but your manager has to be aware that at all times you're working towards your next promo, be aware of your results, be aware of the things you need to do to get there, and make YOU and HIS MANAGER aware of those things. Think about why they're able to do that.These two lines really serve to summarize the incoherent blithering that was jcr's post. Unless you plan to stay in the same org the rest of the time at MS. I think that the whole culture of the stack rank + fighting for scraps for their directs + a lack of visibility and input on what will justify a promotion is what scares of managers from engaging with their employees regarding career growth.Note, that I am not saying that I want a guarantee one way or the other. Its nice to see constructive advice and stories from everyone.I'm in the 61 bucket and currently struggling with my team for many months. They had to be given outlandish levels so as to match their previous compensation. Leak of Microsoft Salaries Shows Fight for Higher Compensation What if you and your manager are at the same level L62. You should be able to show the path to a goal, especially to collections of people who do not report to you. Ellie Reinker - Senior Director - EcoTech Partners LLC | LinkedIn Granted, you have to live in the greater NYC area, but it's a great place to be. Staff Software Engineer, Google Cloud Platforms, Senior Staff Software Engineer, Infrastructure, Principal Engineer, Developer Platform Systems, Senior Software Engineer, Mobile (Android), AR. I got to point where I resented my manager so much I could barely talk to him. Jon Tucker - Principal Director - Data & AI - Kainos | LinkedIn The way to get to a higher level is to increase the scope of your contributions.In our group (somewhere in STB), L63 seems to begin with having at least 2 reports. You will make your management look good and the levels will come. The position entails teaching an introductory physics sequence, upper-level physics courses, and related labs. Senior->principal->partner are the level bands, 63/64->65/66/67, 68/69/70. Say that you will understand if your manager thinks you aren't ready. I've been struggling with the elusive 59 -> 60 move for quite some time. Without soft skills, you can't make 64 and certainly no chance at 65.I've seen many people transfer into MCS, level up, and then transfer out basically using it as a boost. Also, never ascribe to malfeasance what may simply be due to incompetence. I heard that promotion budgets are significantly reduced at below 65 level. You dont have the same experience or abilities to perform in a core STB senior level role. If only your manager knows you then it is unlikely (at least on paper) that you will move beyond L62. Unless you're an asshat, in which case see mini's comment about slapping yourself around and listening to what other's think about you.And in those huge orgs with all the noise it is really easy for folks to rest and *ahem* vest, so you are overlooked by default.The key as mini and others have stated is finding the tech and team you love and everything flows from there (because you will be so excited you will go home and work another 4 hours every night examining customer feedback, competitive products, etc. Calibrations are like a brick wall, even in regard to comments made about you. (2): Wow, thanks for the early + great feedback. This is all well and good, but in 9years I've never worked in a group with a Senior IC (Windows, IE, .NET), though some architects. Otherwise, you start getting limited reviews and your compensation goes down.Obviously there was no advice in this post, but I thought it was an interesting observation, and perhaps the company can learn something from this viewpoint. You'd do well to read it again:Success in business comes from serving your customers, not about beating your competition. Similarly, the best predictor of your success at the next level is your success at the current level! . When you take on the toughest problems that risk the product and make that problem go away, they are happy. I thought what I did was valuable but in the end, it wasn't.The Microsoft up or out policy is the prime directive. Those teams I used to despise as a L60, and only tolerate as a 63? I dont know why this is the case. Worked my ass off and finally get recognized as Snr contributor. James Chelliah - APAC Head of Finance | Executive Director - LinkedIn No, L7 is 66-67. The details in front of you are just details. IBM got their position by focusing on the customer. With wide-eyed wonder he asked WHAT? I said whatever the @#$% your manager most needs you to do!6. Then follow Mini's advice and you should be all set. But people who move often grow faster because of two things (in my opinion.) Absolutely not Definitely yes 3 1 David Lean Worked at Microsoft (company) (1990-2009) Upvoted by Jack Schofield , Computer journalist who has covered Microsoft for 35 years. Your response is private Was this worth your time? Make sure you have chosen commitments that you can exceed, and that you deliver visible and significant value to your business and customers. Nothing you do is good, all you get is criticism. Say B.In a perfect case, B will have 10 devs to transfer to A but when that happen B will be left with 5 testers and 2 PMs. Will a L63 have direct reports and/or manage v-? And in my experience they are *eager* to get your skills and your lower level payroll expense! Leadership: pro-active leadership that convinces team members of the future direction and even helps to . It can be a really discouraging time in your career, but if you can get past it youre headed for another amazing growth curve like the one that got you to level 62! This will only lead us to a healthy and balanced distribution of levels across genders. I'm not looking for any off-topic comments let alone woe-be-me comments - remember that slap thing? I am not saying the manager is trying to sabotage, but when push comes to shove will you get the impactful project. Your Recently Promoted L63 Peers: let's say you have at least one peer that in the past year or so has been promoted to L63. check the ego out, ensure that people around you (the whole team is successful), create the best results possible and your promotion wont be far away. Perhaps someone can explain to me how you get successfully promoted without your boss's support. The soft skills definitely matter. You will not know the difference. But power plays are at work and I get smacked when I try and take on extra work.So my question to the more experienced is this - how does one get the attention of management when they are focused on their own problems, their favorite underlings (of which I am not one), and when there is not enough work to go around? L8=Partner/GM. And when the time comes, putting you up for a promotion to L63 is the first time your boss will be challenged by your skip-level and by your Aunt and Uncles (your boss's peers) about one of your promotions. It turns out that typically your immediate manager has little control, it's all decided at higher levels. Raymond V. Gilmartin 3,4 Former Chairman, President, Chief Executive Officer, Merck & Co., Inc. W. Reed Hastings 3 How long do people usually sit at L62 in MCS? Finally, I think my experience proves that people who may be on theslow track to advancement can turn things around with the right commitment and management. It can help you identify blind spots which may be holding you back.7. Microsoft's '08 Mistakes: The Software Giant's Three Errors http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/121908-microsofts-08-mistakes-the-software.html?hpg1=bnJust three? For example, some are principal individual contributors that just stayed for too long in a group and became essential, but now want to move on and cannot do that, either because their skills are obsolete or because they simply cannot go to a new startup team at such high level without any management responsibility, and they are untested managers. Buy a Principal a coffee. All of my experience is in the product development groups at MS (dev/test/pm) so my observations may not apply elsewhere. When I mastered the above -- and when I had partner teams widely viewed as difficult or bad partners coming to my GM and singing my praises as the go-to guy, *that* is when I became a Principal. It may be that the policy is to do transparent leveling but it's no one's job to go through and make sure they're up to date. That's the easy way out. Steven A. Ballmer Chief Executive Officer, Microsoft Corporation. So I cultivate relationships with my manager's peers; their support helps tremendously. The person who puts you up for promotion and has promotion conversations with your skip level. : those titles are organization specific. 5. Microsoft senior leadership team under Satya Nadella - CNBC For those impatient folks who want to move up every 18 months, watch out. So far, we all appear to have jobs, but man, what a shocker, I thought ours was one of the more stable teams.Not sure what happens to our Director, he seemed a bit shocked himself when he delivered the news today. How about a thread on the current hiring/moving freeze, or on surviving the New Ice Age? You go along with a good boss/employee relationship then all of a sudden, it's like you killed his first born. Microsoft Senior Director Salaries | Glassdoor May 2008: Gold Star. When someone else is waiting on you for something, don't be the reason they can't get their shit done.4. My queries on any specific guidance would get no response or the response that youre a 62 and you should be able to figure it out. "I wonder whyMicrosoft: Citi Cuts Ests, Target On PC Slowdown. Ask yourself: what fraction of your job do you actually enjoy? There may be multiple reasons for pay differences - one of which is a small number of salaries submitted per job. Sometimes the answer is, "well, we'll see" and other times the answer is, "if they'd only stop doing X and start doing Y on a sustained basis, I could see it". I /like/ OneCare. Also, its important to keep in mind that it is impossible to provide a perfect definition of any level. Microsoft senior leadership team under Satya Nadella Tech Here are the most important execs at Microsoft under Satya Nadella Jordan Novet @jordannovet Key Points Microsoft's executive team. At this point, the financial crisis and everything, wouldnt it be more interesting to try and predict what KT and Steve will do once they recieve the rest of year forecast mid december? 8,000+ Senior Director Human Resources Jobs in United States - LinkedIn Owning big features, knowledge about code base, ability to help your peers - irrelevant. I basically lost 5 years of growth due to a bad manager and my own unwillingness to own my career. Are all management titles and the name used to call then in different orgs can change. There are the clear execptions and I think you can see this more on the engineering side than sales and marketing.One other piece of advice - be mindful of the impression you make on your bosses peers and others in senior levels of the organizations. the higher you go, the bigger deal this is - at least to where i have gotten.Finally, not everybody will be good in every role. And how do you represent yourself as a leader and influencer when you are in a room with 6 other people vying for the exact same thing? and The hardest work item on his place was an expression parser that the team's architect wrote for him. You must emphasize the goal of understanding how to improve, not just tagging a higher paycheck. L68 is partner, or you may see GM. You want to test more cases than he does, you want to build something that draws users to what you're doing more than to his.Having part of the bonus be for how the team succeeded relative to the other teams might focus competition towards the competition and not exclusively on co-workers.Add up the review scores of each team member and rank teams. You must ask for a promotion when you think you are ready. What is our competition doing? And the place where MS has the most non-contributing overheads is Redmond. One question a manager will think about before promoting you is how many times he had to clean up after you pissed off someone else - especially if it's someone on another team. Ask your VP, give the benefits on transparency from your perspective, and ask their opinion. I also don't know if this is the first step towards a lay-off, but for now, it seems we'll have jobs for a few more months.Ugh, not good, not good at all. Agree with all the comments that this is a great post, and was just as true 5 years ago as it is now.My story, which might help the college kids: I began my career at MS out of college as a 10/59, rocketed to 62 - and then sat.I left in 2002 and started building a career at other places, and can now look back at when I left, slap my hand on my head, and say of course I wasn't promoted - I did nothing to build a positive, defensible relationship with my skip-level mgr, and my real influence outside of my individual team was nonexistent. I am a troll. Wonderful. My work affected hundreds of developers in our org. That is, its hard to define, but I know it when I see it. L68 would not be referred to as Director. Mini, as good as your writeup is, there is too much emphasis on this level promo business in MS, and I have seen my fair share of people that have been burnt by it. Think of the guy in the other company, the guy who is building something that competes with you, with your team. You're cursed for life.2. To the person worried about being same level for 3.5 years don't sweat it. Then I would get emails rating my abilities in these areas that I had no input into it and any replies rebutting it would go unanswered. We definitely need a new thread, things are starting to happen indeed.Our 120+ person org has just been broken up due to lack of budget. Happy hunting. Senior level executive excelling at increasing operational efficiencies, improving . You don't deliver products on your own -- you're usually building one system, one set of components that together make one successful (or unsuccessful) product.You can always, always find ways that make yourself, your manager, and your immediate team much more successful. Senior directors are tenured members of an organization who are considered part of the leadership or executive team, in which they represent their department or division. I guess they are fallible humans too. more often than not it is up to the employee to use the resources, show maturity and commonsense and move up62 -> 63 is difficult and there is a reason behind it. Be the Rosh Gadol Microsoftie. L66 would be Principal or Sr Director. "Shock and awe awaits" is correct. YES, life is unfair.At the end, mastering 'soft skills' will help anyone: even someone at 59. You've made 3 mistakes. Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. It is true you can always do that, go to Google, go to ABC, or whatever. Go and restart in another org and dig through their historical biz and people stability during your informationals. Microsoft, Go to company page They are 100% star material. Here's how to find it. Candidates with evidence of effective teaching will be given preference. Then do it.Yeah yeah, that's an oversimplification. And on one total-eclipse-rare occasion, I've been able to be answer the follow-up question: will they reach L65 and say with confidence: Absolutely. Levels are all about perception.I know devs who are underlevelled and devs who are over-levelled. But it should definitely keep me up in the top of the class, and getting a nice review score + kudos + a job well done with results is a reward in itself (that I crave for more than the actual promotion).I have given this suggestion to Lisa, but I have not seen any action so far.